Comments on: Slave to the Grind - The Salaryman Shuffle http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/ A blogazine written by bloggers for everyone interested in Japan. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:16:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Kwech http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-139 Kwech Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:41:32 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-139 @ Nick Ramsay - interesting point. @ Nick Ramsay - interesting point.

]]> By: Danielle http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-132 Danielle Fri, 10 Oct 2008 03:47:53 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-132 "presenteeism" I love it!! Is it commons licensed? :D “presenteeism” I love it!! Is it commons licensed? :D

]]> By: john turningpin http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-119 john turningpin Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:52:36 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-119 I work in a Japanese orifice, and I get to work at 9:00 on the dot and leave at 6:00 on the dot. Don't know what the others are doing outside of those hours, and don't care, but I'm pretty sure it's not work. I don't mind doing overtime, but I won't do it just for appearance's sake. And not being paid for it sort of decreases the motivation as well. And yes, the use of "orifice" was intentional. I work in a Japanese orifice, and I get to work at 9:00 on the dot and leave at 6:00 on the dot. Don’t know what the others are doing outside of those hours, and don’t care, but I’m pretty sure it’s not work. I don’t mind doing overtime, but I won’t do it just for appearance’s sake. And not being paid for it sort of decreases the motivation as well.

And yes, the use of “orifice” was intentional.

]]> By: Orchid64 http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-90 Orchid64 Sat, 04 Oct 2008 08:16:12 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-90 I worked in a Japanese office for 12 years and it was definitely the case that there were salarymen who just hung around the office and dragged out the work so that they looked vaguely busy, but got little or nothing done. The OLs worked a lot harder than the salarymen, though they were contract workers and weren't allowed to do over time (because they'd have to be paid for it). The salarymen just had to linger during the hours the shacho was in the office. They didn't work hard, but they did put in a good show. That's not to say all of them do this, but a sizable portion do. I worked in a Japanese office for 12 years and it was definitely the case that there were salarymen who just hung around the office and dragged out the work so that they looked vaguely busy, but got little or nothing done. The OLs worked a lot harder than the salarymen, though they were contract workers and weren’t allowed to do over time (because they’d have to be paid for it). The salarymen just had to linger during the hours the shacho was in the office. They didn’t work hard, but they did put in a good show.

That’s not to say all of them do this, but a sizable portion do.

]]> By: billywest http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-80 billywest Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:41:50 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-80 Not deleted, Luke. It just went into the moderation queue. As far as my definition of 'salaryman' goes, I'm sure it's a mixture of several stereotypes. It certainly doesn't include a generalization of all or even the majority of Japanese workers, though. Thanks for the detailed comment, Luke. Cheers! Not deleted, Luke. It just went into the moderation queue.

As far as my definition of ’salaryman’ goes, I’m sure it’s a mixture of several stereotypes. It certainly doesn’t include a generalization of all or even the majority of Japanese workers, though.

Thanks for the detailed comment, Luke.
Cheers!

]]> By: Luke http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-79 Luke Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:49:56 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-79 Why was my comment deleted? Why was my comment deleted?

]]> By: erizabesuesu http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-78 erizabesuesu Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:35:54 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-78 Many of the salarymen practice presenteeism more hard work. When I was the girl friday at a Tokyo office, I was shocked by the long hours the people put in, yet they got so little done. A lot of the management of office data was done by hand when there are software packages out there to handle these things; people took long breaks; a lot of time was spend doing housekeeping, and not work-related stuff; and meetings ran ridiculously overtime and were not focussed enough to treat topics and then allow for action. Nope, these guys are working long hours because it's habit, it keeps up appearances. What would happen if offices in Tokyo were mandated to close at 6pm, lights out, doors locked? I think the average family would go buggy for a while until they figured out what to do with the previously absent dad, now home for dinner and at loose ends after. Maybe hobby shops and sports gyms would boom or something.... Many of the salarymen practice presenteeism more hard work. When I was the girl friday at a Tokyo office, I was shocked by the long hours the people put in, yet they got so little done. A lot of the management of office data was done by hand when there are software packages out there to handle these things; people took long breaks; a lot of time was spend doing housekeeping, and not work-related stuff; and meetings ran ridiculously overtime and were not focussed enough to treat topics and then allow for action.

Nope, these guys are working long hours because it’s habit, it keeps up appearances.

What would happen if offices in Tokyo were mandated to close at 6pm, lights out, doors locked? I think the average family would go buggy for a while until they figured out what to do with the previously absent dad, now home for dinner and at loose ends after. Maybe hobby shops and sports gyms would boom or something….

]]> By: Luke http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-76 Luke Sun, 28 Sep 2008 05:33:38 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-76 Out of curiosity, who do you define as a salaryman? I ask because while you've outlined here a lot of the stereotypes about how a salaryman lives, you didn't really say much about who they actually are. That is, when you say 'salaryman' are characterizing Japanese workers in general, or just a certain segment? It's important to draw that distinction because in the West, the term 'salaryman' seems to represent the old stereotype of Japanese workers as a million identical worker bees slaving away for their companies at the expense of everything that we value: personal freedom, family and social time and anything resembling a fulfilling life outside of work. On the other hand, Japanese use the term more to describe a certain pathetic class of worker, not just every worker who is a company-man (seishain). It's the kind of guy who has 24/7 ass-breath, wears cheap Aoki suits, will never move up beyond middle management and simply goes through the motions at work in order to collect his paycheck and bonus. Those guys are ridiculed, but the average company-man is pretty widely respected and regularly ranks as one of the top desired jobs among young people. So while 'salarymen' are certainly high in number and much more easily visible than those who have actually made it in business, I think it's misleading to characterize all Japanese workers or even the majority as being that way. It's funny though, this kind of stereotyping actually goes both ways. My Japanese boss complains endlessly about the American employees in the US office because whether or not they've actually finished their work or not they all head out at 5 pm. There also seems to be a general idea that American workers are lazy because they aren't nearly as anal retentively obsessed with details as Japanese workers. Anyway, fun article and interesting intro to salaryman for the unititated. :-) Out of curiosity, who do you define as a salaryman?
I ask because while you’ve outlined here a lot of the stereotypes about how a salaryman lives, you didn’t really say much about who they actually are. That is, when you say ’salaryman’ are characterizing Japanese workers in general, or just a certain segment?
It’s important to draw that distinction because in the West, the term ’salaryman’ seems to represent the old stereotype of Japanese workers as a million identical worker bees slaving away for their companies at the expense of everything that we value: personal freedom, family and social time and anything resembling a fulfilling life outside of work.
On the other hand, Japanese use the term more to describe a certain pathetic class of worker, not just every worker who is a company-man (seishain). It’s the kind of guy who has 24/7 ass-breath, wears cheap Aoki suits, will never move up beyond middle management and simply goes through the motions at work in order to collect his paycheck and bonus. Those guys are ridiculed, but the average company-man is pretty widely respected and regularly ranks as one of the top desired jobs among young people.
So while ’salarymen’ are certainly high in number and much more easily visible than those who have actually made it in business, I think it’s misleading to characterize all Japanese workers or even the majority as being that way.
It’s funny though, this kind of stereotyping actually goes both ways. My Japanese boss complains endlessly about the American employees in the US office because whether or not they’ve actually finished their work or not they all head out at 5 pm. There also seems to be a general idea that American workers are lazy because they aren’t nearly as anal retentively obsessed with details as Japanese workers.
Anyway, fun article and interesting intro to salaryman for the unititated. :-)

]]> By: mike http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-73 mike Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:50:15 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-73 Noway could I hack it there, and nor would I want to! Noway could I hack it there, and nor would I want to!

]]> By: Danielle http://sevententotokyo.com/2008/09/slave-to-the-grind-the-salaryman-shuffle/#comment-69 Danielle Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:03:55 +0000 http://sevententotokyo.com/?p=100#comment-69 Referring also to Nick's point and Billy's question - could Japan survive without the salaryman's overtime. The answer is yes most definitely in the short term - inasmuchas "efficiency" and "productivity measures" do not seem to be in the Japanese lexicon and their are soooo many ways which things could be done in less time and by less people. HOWEVER in the long term I'm not sure - the West's efficiency kick (which has lasted the last 30 years or so) has simply meant less jobs full stop and less job security, and a large and ever rising gap between the comfortable (let alone the rich) and the very poor. Sure, it's not India poor but more and more Australian families live in cold, rundown housing out of which they can be evicted at any moment, with utilities regularly switched off between bills and poor meals irregularly - all because of a lack of real jobs and yet the economy is doing fine. Personally, I think they need a nice middle way - just enough efficiency to allow the Japanese man to discover what it's like not to be a stranger at home but not so much that "efficiency" and money for the shareholders becomes the more important principle than employment for as many people as possible (and I mean a living wage - not the 14hrs work over two weeks which the Australian Government statistics deem as being "employed".) /end rant ^_^ Referring also to Nick’s point and Billy’s question - could Japan survive without the salaryman’s overtime. The answer is yes most definitely in the short term - inasmuchas “efficiency” and “productivity measures” do not seem to be in the Japanese lexicon and their are soooo many ways which things could be done in less time and by less people. HOWEVER in the long term I’m not sure - the West’s efficiency kick (which has lasted the last 30 years or so) has simply meant less jobs full stop and less job security, and a large and ever rising gap between the comfortable (let alone the rich) and the very poor. Sure, it’s not India poor but more and more Australian families live in cold, rundown housing out of which they can be evicted at any moment, with utilities regularly switched off between bills and poor meals irregularly - all because of a lack of real jobs and yet the economy is doing fine.

Personally, I think they need a nice middle way - just enough efficiency to allow the Japanese man to discover what it’s like not to be a stranger at home but not so much that “efficiency” and money for the shareholders becomes the more important principle than employment for as many people as possible (and I mean a living wage - not the 14hrs work over two weeks which the Australian Government statistics deem as being “employed”.)

/end rant ^_^

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